Part 2~Anilbaran Roy’s Interviews with Sri Aurobindo

Anilbaran: If one should stop all mental activities during the meditation should one stop all thinking also? Say, about the relation between the Purusha and the Prakriti, attributes of the Purusha, etc.? 

Sri Aurobindo: One may have an experience, a perception of these things, but one should not indulge an intellectual thinking or mental debate on such issues. In the normal play of our mind there are all sorts of perversions; hence the need to stop all these things and inculcate right thinking, right willing — in other words, Truth must be established. And, in order to possess the Truth, the plays of the lower nature must be stopped. The Purusha should assume at all times the attitude of a giver of sanction while rejecting the lower movements and accepting only truth-movements. 

Anilbaran: The Gita says: ātmasamstham manah krtvā…chintayet [Chapter VI, Verse 25] what does this mean? 

Sri Aurobindo: The mind is running on all sides to think about many things, —what we call thoughts coming from outside. We must withdraw the mind from these distractions and make it abide in the self. Thus guarding the peace within we shall have to do the work without. Now, what the Gita has not mentioned but what we say is this: the Truth-power must be brought down from above into that state of peace, and this higher power — Parashakti — will directly guide the vehicle—ādhāra—and transform it. 

After having stopped the lower activities of the mind, it must be made receptive; and, instead of weaving all kinds of empty and idle thoughts, the mind should receive intuitions from above. The reason why we recommend the suspension of external activities is that otherwise the mind cannot abandon its habitual activities and old movements and accept truth-movements so long as it is engaged in such activities. This is why isolation is necessary. 

Anilbaran: Does the higher Truth work in us only when we are established in the silent consciousness? and not at other times? 

Sri Aurobindo: The higher Truth is all the time working in us but through the lower power — Aparashakti. It is when we become conscious of the play of this higher Power then only yoga begins. Not in the state of unconsciousness, but in full awareness when the higher Power will descend into and direct us, then only the yogic life will begin. 

Anilbaran: The lower distractions are less and I feel peace quite well. Will this be lasting? 

Sri Aurobindo: It will be lasting if you want it to be so. It is not that the distractions will never recur; but you must go on rejecting them and thus the state of peace will be established. 

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4 July 1926 (Morning) 

Anilbaran: I find an insincerity in me. 

Sri Aurobindo: What sort of insincerity? 

Anilbaran: Whatever work I do, that alone seems to me the real life. But so long as I am engaged in meditation or practise yoga that appears as a formal affair. I do not find much interest in it. 

Sri Aurobindo: Do you feel yourself pulled to any particular type of work? 

Anilbaran: No, whatever work I take in hand, that alone seems to me to be real, and my mind gets engrossed in it alone and I have to force myself in order to pull it out of the work. And it does not succeed. Even during meditations the mind keeps on ruminating on its own ideas and plans. 

Sri Aurobindo: The desire of your vital being is towards work. And the vital being won’t find any interest in yoga so long as you do not have any experience of the higher and fuller life that is in yoga. As long as this experience is not there, the vital being will not find any interest. If the mind has sufficient strength, then it can progressively make the vital being seek it. Otherwise, the progress will be very slow. In order to satisfy the vital being, it must be offered some activity, and at the same time the mind should be slowly made to take interest in yoga. For this reason, I have told you many times that I hesitated to call you to this yoga. Your mind has some clearness and capacity for right thinking; it opens towards the heights, but for its own sake, — to receive light from above for its own activity. But our yoga demands surrender; the entire being has to be put in the hands of the higher force and allow itself to be transformed. For this an opening is needed.   

Anilbaran: I have only this much of opening that I have no doubts in me. Whenever I refer any of my problems to the power above, I receive a satisfactory solution. 

Sri Aurobindo: But you make this reference for the benefit of your mind. Your vital being has so long been accustomed to work and had considered that alone to be yoga. Now it does not find it easy to turn to a new direction. But if, with the insistence of the mind you can make it seek for it, then you may succeed. But what about the quiet detachment you were experiencing? 

Anilbaran: That is not getting sufficiently settled. If I can live in the quietness of some mountainous surroundings, I may perhaps experience peace. What do you say? 

Sri Aurobindo: There is no certainty about that. 

Anilbaran: Quite so! The vital may very well start hungering even there. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it will think, what’s all this for! About people who come here, their difficulties, their being’s true nature come out in the open. This is what is happening in your case. Just now you mentioned that your problems are getting solved. Well, this too is a problem. 

Anilbaran: My reference to the light above makes me see this clearly that my vital being is not finding any interest in yoga. 

Sri Aurobindo: This indeed is the real problem. But what is the solution? 

Anilbaran: Well, even before the solution is found, it is important to understand the problem. I have now rightly understood the problem. So far I could not detect in such a clear way the pull of my vital being. Now that I have realized the problem, I hope that I shall surely find a solution. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, try and see what solution you find. 

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11 July 1926 (Morning) 

Anilbaran: I have found a rough solution to the problem. 

Sri Aurobindo: What is it? 

Anilbaran: I was telling you that my vital being is not taking any interest in the yogic life, but that is not correct; for I am not feeling any great uneasiness because I have left the active life behind to enter into this path of yoga. 

Sri Aurobindo: This does not mean much, for it may be that your vital being has submitted itself to your mind. It may say, “let’s see what he does!” Your vital being had agreed to your previous yogic life. This you must feel within you, for upon this depends your future yogic life. If the vital being refuses to give consent, then later on it may cause trouble. Just now you are a mental man, your mind has illumination, harmony; you govern everything with your mind but you have not been able to open yourself to the Supermind which is above. Do you have just an impression that the vital being has consented, are you simply making a conjecture or do you feel it? 

Anilbaran: I do feel that my vital being has also give consent. 

Sri Aurobindo: The vital being may have responded within you. But in the earlier stages of our yoga there is nothing much in which the vital being can be interested. 

Anilbaran: I feel that things are getting organized within me. I can understand that the movements of the mind and the vital are coming from outside. It is only when my psychic being takes interest in them that these movements continue. 

Sri Aurobindo: The psychic being takes interest! What you call the psychic being is the mind of the vital. The heart is the seat of this mind. And this mind is the essence of the senses. It receives things from outside, acts upon things that are outside — knows, gives consent, takes interest in them. But this mind cannot be the Ishwara, but it is the knower, the giver of the consent. Above this mind is the Buddhi. This Buddhi has two aspects: one is understanding, the other is will or play of the dynamic mind. Above this is the higher mind which organizes all these. This higher mind is the instrument of the Supermind. The Supermind organizes this higher mind and intuitivizes it. There are other levels of the mind. There is the physical mind which is mechanical but the awareness which is the essential character (dharma) of the mind is also to some extent present there. The mind has these four levels: physical, vital, buddhi, higher mind. The Supermind is far above these. 

The psychic being and the mental being, Manomaya Purusha, are not the same. The psychic being is behind the mind, it is what the Westerners call the soul. It takes interest in the movements of the mind and the vital only when there is a harmony between these movements and the truth above. The knowledge of the psychic being is deeper. 

Anilbaran: The solution that I have found is this: the condition of my vital being is such that if I get absorbed in external activities, I shall be unable to do any yoga. Therefore for the time being I am keeping myself occupied with studies, and in this way I am advancing slowly. I think I should settle here permanently. But I should like to go back once to my place during the Puja. 

Sri Aurobindo: Have you been able to make arrangements for that? 

Anilbaran: No, I have not yet been able to make any arrangements. But I trust that some arrangements will be made. 

Sri Aurobindo: Well, see to it! Your solution has been the right solution. 

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Sri Aurobindo: But the play of the vital being is not of one kind only. As I was telling you yesterday, there are several personalities within this vital being. 

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Sri Aurobindo: The yogin becomes aware in part of the action of the supramental power organizing the lower vehicle (ādhāra). A part of it remains behind the veil and prepares itself. 

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12 July 1926 Monday (Evening) 

Anilbaran: X and some others of Bengal have been nourishing a hurt feeling against you. 

Sri Aurobindo: I am quite indifferent to that. Hurt for what? Because I have pulled you? 

Anilbaran: No, it is because you are doing nothing for the country. 

Sri Aurobindo: How do they know that I’m doing nothing? 

Anilbaran: They see that you are not doing anything. 

Sri Aurobindo: Rather I see that they are not doing anything. 

Anilbaran: If people fail to recognize it, then, what’s the use of such work? 

Sri Aurobindo: I would have been happy if instead of beating their drums while doing nothing, they could have done some work quietly without any propaganda. 

Anilbaran: Some propaganda is necessary. 

Sri Aurobindo: Propaganda is necessary only for the sake of money! 

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Anilbaran: The Hathayoga speaks of three different nādis [channels of nerve], Ida, Pingala and Sushumna. Do they correspond to something physiological or they are psychical? 

Sri Aurobindo: Psychical. 

Anilbaran: Some people claim that physiological operations help in various ways to attain brahmajnāna [the knowledge of the Brahman]. 

Sri Aurobindo: They make Brahman depend on nerves? These processes are often dangerous to the body — e.g. even leading to phthisis. 

Anilbaran: What is the use of Pranayama? 

Sri Aurobindo: It shakes you up. 

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18 July 1926 

Anilbaran: I observe that if, instead of keeping the mind just blank during meditation, I take the help of a symbol such as my entire being remaining turned above towards the Sun of Knowledge (Vijnana Surya), then it becomes easy to quieten the mind. 

Sri Aurobindo: Have you tried it? 

Anilbaran: Yes, sir! 

Sri Aurobindo: There is no objection to that. Why make the mind blank? There should be an idea of the higher truth, light and power within. 

Anilbaran: Isn’t that idea also a symbol? When we look upward from below, isn’t that a symbol too? 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, of course, it is a symbol, but a right symbol. The experience will come — even the experience of the Sun of Knowledge (Vijnana Surya). 

Anilbaran: I am also getting some experience of the Purusha consciousness. 

Sri Aurobindo: How? 

Anilbaran: I feel myself to be a vast infinite reality, having no wants of its own; it is complete in itself. The movements of the mind seem to lie in one corner of that infinite being. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, this Purusha consciousness must be maintained; otherwise the calm will not last. The knocks and blows that come from outside cannot disturb one, if this Purusha consciousness remains at the back. 

Anilbaran: I have another feeling. As a result of my effort to turn the gaze within, although as yet no positive gains have been made, still, as a result of that sincere effort it appears to me that the plays of the external life are less real and that there is a higher reality within. 

Also I clearly perceive the opening of the dynamic side in me. At times a substance, at other times a complete form comes down in me from above. And in this way I compose my essays and write letters.     

Sri Aurobindo: From where do they come? From above? 

Anilbaran: Yes, I perceive that they come from above — very clear and definite. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, such definite things will come down from above. They come from different levels — higher mind, intuitivized mind, or from a still higher level, but they are not intellectual. 

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25 July 1926 

Anilbaran: During the meditation my mind remains quieter than before. Previously I used to feel that the mind was near the heart centre and the higher Truth was in the heart centre. Now I have a feeling that the mind is in the head and the higher Truth is outside, above the head. 

Sri Aurobindo: The mind of an ordinary man is truly near the heart. Those who have advanced rise to the mind which is in the head, — they have the play of their mental movements in the head itself. But all these are inside the body; man is, as it were, shut up in a box, his entire consciousness is confined within the organism. This imprisonment has to be undone. Outside and above the mind there is the play of a consciousness which is lighted by the higher Truth, but man is not conscious of it and of that he has to be conscious. 

Anilbaran: The other day I saw something like a vision — may be that was only an imagination. There was over my head something like a thick lid. All of a sudden a small round hole was made in it (like that of a coin), and through this hole there came upon me a bright golden light. I was taken aback. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, perhaps not exactly like this, but similar visions are seen by many. It is said in the Isha Upanishad as if a hole were being bored from above through this lid. What lies above this lid is not known to man. This lid had to be pierced. The Upanishad says: hiranmayena pātrena apihitam. 

Anilbaran: Since the day I had that vision, I have almost a constant feeling that a light was playing over my head. Because I feel it to be so real, it has become somewhat easier for me to concentrate above. Before this, only the external physical world seemed to be real. 

Sri Aurobindo: One can see light above the head; that indicates a consciousness outside the body. But that itself is not the Truth-Consciousness or Vijnana. But much light descending from there illumines this consciousness. 

Anilbaran: What is the relation between the Purusha consciousness and the supramental consciousness? 

Sri Aurobindo: The consciousness of the supreme Purusha remains above, but in the mind there may be a Purusha consciousness which they call the cosmic consciousness — it is wide, all-pervading, one. Outside this goes on the play of Prakriti. 

Anilbaran: I get the experience of this consciousness, but within the mind. 

Sri Aurobindo: Even if it is in the mind, it is a spiritual consciousness. 

Anilbaran: I can enter this consciousness at will. Then no outside distractions or attractions can affect me. I feel quite at peace. I have another feeling. Earlier I had an impression that I was an undivided simple being, but now I perceive that my being is very complex, that I can stay at different planes of consciousness. 

From what you see now, I hope, I have nothing to be disheartened about? 

Sri Aurobindo: No, you have rather begun well. You will have it. 

Anilbaran: I have a strong conviction that I shall get the thing. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, you will have it. 

Anilbaran: What you were saying to us yesterday about our past lives, was it all a joke? Or, was it said in seriousness? 

Sri Aurobindo: No, it was not a joke. 

Anilbaran: What about my past life? 

Sri Aurobindo: That I have not yet seen. 

Anilbaran: Does it help if one can know one’s past life? 

 Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it does help much to know what elements are there. 

 Anilbaran: That one may surely know from within. 

 Sri Aurobindo: Yes, of course. 

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1 August 1926 

Anilbaran: I feel peace within but this peace has not established itself on my surface mind and life. I can never get rid of the restlessness of my mind. The play of idle thoughts goes on in full vigour. 

Sri Aurobindo: The fundamental peace is being established in you and what goes on on the surface is the habitual play of the superficial mind. It will take time for this play to cease. 

Anilbaran: Yes, I can well understand it and I am not impatient about it. Yet, I feel somewhat sad that I still cannot stop these plays of the superficial mind. This does not however disturb my inner being. 

Sri Aurobindo: What about the light that was descending in you from above? 

Anilbaran: I do not see any visions of it. But I observe in me a great deal of intellectual clarity. And when I settle down to write without any thoughts of my own, thoughts do come pouring down upon me from above. I put no effort but what comes out seems to be quite satisfactory. 

Sri Aurobindo: All these are the results of the play of that light which you experienced as a hole of the size of a coin. You’ll have to widen this play; the mind has to be kept open to the higher consciousness. 

Anilbaran: The vital forces are all lying in wait as it were to enter at the slightest opportunity. I have to be extremely vigilant. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it will be so until the power from above comes down and establishes itself in the vital plane. 

Anilbaran: I suppose I’ll have to control them with the mind at present. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but when the higher consciousness will descend into the mind, then one will have to transfer this control from the mind to the overhead centre. All the thinking will take place in the consciousness above. 

Anilbaran: At times I get glimpses of this thinking in the higher consciousness; at these moments comes a consciousness of mastery. 

Sri Aurobindo: That is what is known as cosmic consciousness. 

Anilbaran: Another thing which I quite realize is that behind the mental, the vital and the physical beings there is a psychical being from where rises an aspiration towards the heights. But I cannot locate the positions of these outer beings. The mind is within the head but where exactly is the seat of the vital? 

Sri Aurobindo (with a smile): The navel region is the centre of the vital. It is from here that the movements of the vital rise upward. Above the navel and behind the chest is the centre of the play of emotions and below this takes place the play of the physical. Mulādhāra is the base of the physical. In between the Mulādhāra and the navel, there is another centre of the vital. 

Anilbaran: I see a play of light above. But is it because I think about it? 

Sri Aurobindo (with a smile): No. 

Anilbaran: What should I do about those idle thoughts that go on when I sit for meditation? 

Sri Aurobindo: Do these thoughts go on outside and you see them as such? 

Anilbaran: No, I get absorbed in those thoughts. After some time I wake up and think: what is all this happening? Once again I quieten the mind and turn it upward. 

Sri Aurobindo: This habitual play will continue at present. But all these must be kept outside. This awakening of the mind and self-control have to be done faster. 

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8 August 1926 (Morning) 

Anilbaran: I have nothing much to say today. But last night I had a vision — the sun over my head, very vivid. 

Sri Aurobindo: Was the light penetrating inside or was it spreading outside? 

Anilbaran: It was spreading outside over the head. 

Sri Aurobindo: You have seen it alright. This is what the Yogis called brahmajyoti. 

Anilbaran: Are these not illusions of the mind? 

Sri Aurobindo (with a smile): This is your European concept. The mental images are not so vivid. You have seen it aright. 

Anilbaran: Let me tell you about my smoking. I had left cigarette and tobacco four years back. The other day I saw in the notebook of Purani that you had said that the use of tobacco etc. inhibits the activity of the tamasic centres. To test this, these few days I have been smoking cigarettes. 

Sri Aurobindo: In order to explain why the ordinary Sadhus and Yogis take to tobacco and gānja [an intoxicant], I said that these cause stimulation of the physical brain. But these have reactions. And to stimulate the brain thus is not the proper process. 

Anilbaran: After I smoked a cigarette at night, the very next morning I had the vision of a hole of a coin’s size being made on the covering of my head. 

Sri Aurobindo (with a smile): You thought it was the result of your smoking cigarettes? 

Anilbaran: So it does not help? 

Sri Aurobindo: No. 

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22 August 1926 (Morning) 

Anilbaran: On the 15th August, since the morning I began to feel a sort of profound peace. The experience of light above the head became real. During the afternoon meditation the aspiration within blazed up. All these days I had been as it were in the outskirts of the Yoga; now I am feeling quite within it. 

Sri Aurobindo: The light which you see above — does it descend within? 

Anilbaran: No. But that it is possible to live in that light above has become clear to me. I cannot yet live there but that has to be worked out. I have seen another light above which is not whitish but red and is not limited like the sun but something infinite. 

I have made an analysis of the play of sexual desire in me. I do not know if it is correct. 

Sri Aurobindo: What is it? 

Anilbaran: There is no hankering in me for the satisfaction of this desire. Generally speaking, if I stay away from its objects, I do not feel any desire, but if some vital wave comes from outside, if the vital wave of someone else affects me, then there is something in me which readily responds and then I have to apply the mental control. Otherwise by themselves no such desires disturb me. I have desire in me for satisfactions in the mental field. 

Sri Aurobindo: How? 

Anilbaran: My mind is naturally attracted towards studies, mental constructions and the satisfaction one derives from them. 

Sri Aurobindo: The response that comes from your vital being — does it persist? Does your mind keep spinning thoughts about these later on — all sorts of imaginations? 

Anilbaran: No. If its objects are not in front of me I feel no disturbances. 

Sri Aurobindo: That shows that it is only in your superficial being, not in the central.