Part 1~Anilbaran Roy’s Interviews with Sri Aurobindo

Between May and September 1926, Anilbaran Roy had a series of personal interviews with Sri Aurobindo.

24 May 1926: The First Interview 

Sri Aurobindo: At what stage are you? How far? 

Anilbaran:  Can’t make out clearly. 

Sri Aurobindo: Why? Tell me what is happening. 

Anilbaran: When I was in the jail I got a contact of peace of sorts, — I used to receive different lights from above. That was quite a joy. Having come out of the jail everything has got muddled up due to the shocks of the external world. As far as I see it, nothing can be realized in the midst of this confusion. 

Sri Aurobindo: Why don’t you step aside from all these? You say you had an experience of peace in the jail; can you tell me what sort of peace was that? Was it only mental or something else? 

Anilbaran: I can’t tell you definitely but this much I can say that I experienced peace to a good extent. 

Sri Aurobindo: How did this peace come? 

Anilbaran: I used to think that all was being done by the Nature — Prakriti — and I made an effort to be a witness of everything and this was sufficient to give me peace. 

Sri Aurobindo: You are talking about the process of separation of Purusha and Prakriti as given in the Gita. Well, what about the light that used to come from above — was it coming from inside or from outside? 

Anilbaran: I thought it came from inside. 

Sri Aurobindo: What comes from outside, one mistakes it as coming from inside. So many thoughts etc. move about outside in the universal — these manifest inside you. All these you must push away as foreign to you and the inside must be made peaceful, calm and quiet; then it will start descending from above. 

Anilbaran: Two things make me very restless: first, a sense of duty towards my family. My wife and children are going through all sorts of suffering due to my negligence. 

Sri Aurobindo: You won’t be able to help them anyway. Only, while trying to do them good you will bring harm to yourself. Don’t consider them as your own, see them as so many souls (struggling for self-manifestation). 

Anilbaran: All right, I shall try to see them as such. I shall no more worry about them. This idea of duty troubles us a lot. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is difficult for man to cross beyond the idea of duty. 

Anilbaran: I have one more difficulty — the pull of the lower vital. It troubles me a great deal. Under its pressure I may suddenly do something — can’t trust myself. 

Sri Aurobindo: So much! What are you doing to control it? 

Anilbaran: I try to control it by mental will. Sometimes there is no desire to control it and I allow it a short play. But it cannot overpower me. 

Sri Aurobindo: It cannot overpower? 

Anilbaran: No. 

Sri Aurobindo: With the mental will you can suppress it temporarily but that does not bring real mastery. This pull shows that you have a strong vital force — this has to be regenerated. All thoughts, desires, conventions, attachments which come from outside must be ruthlessly pushed away. The inside must be made entirely calm and quiet and there should reign an upward aspiration — a state of awaiting. 

Anilbaran: If this is done, will the mind become completely vacant? 

Sri Aurobindo: The mind will remain still but it won’t lose its power. Look! once I was to go to the Surat Congress and one who taught me this yoga instructed me to reject all thoughts coming from outside and establish an inner calmness. Accordingly, in three days I made my mind entirely vacant. Then I told him, what is this? I am here to give a speech at the Congress! He said, “Do not worry, everything will descend from above.” And that’s what happened. My mind remaining still and vacant, I used to speak out whatever came down from above. This is how I delivered speeches in so many places. This is also how I wrote in the Bande Mataram journal. How many days will you stay here? 

Anilbaran: I came here without any fixed idea about that. I think I’ll stay as long as it is necessary. I have left everything behind and laid all my stress on this yoga. I feel from within that I shall succeed. 

Sri Aurobindo: As a result of the Karma of your past life certain tendencies are causing obstructions. It will take time. Persevere, you may succeed. Why not? 

Anilbaran: Karma? You mean of my past activities? 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, that of course but also the consequences of your previous birth… What is the pecuniary condition at your house? 

Anilbaran: So so! It is necessary that I earn some money. 

Sri Aurobindo: Everyone does not find it helpful to do sadhana from here. There are all kinds of people, and in the attempt to build up a solidarity among them, defects of each one affect all the others. It is for this reason that for many it is better to do sadhana all by oneself remaining away. You watch for a few days, do what I have asked you to do and then you meet me again and report. 

Anilbaran: Yes, sir! Once I have got your protection I am very confident that I shall get the realization. 

                                                             * 

 27 May 1926 

Anilbaran: I have done what you had advised me to do. I have got back the peace I found in the jail. All those things which I could not realize as coming from outside, now I perceive them as such — now I feel a great sense of quiet inside me. But I do not experience anything descending from above. 

Sri Aurobindo: Well, this quiet or peace, is it mental, — only negative or something positive? 

Anilbaran: I have a feeling that it is not merely mental. 

Sri Aurobindo: Apart from the mind do you feel this peace in the physical body also? 

Anilbaran: Yes, it is a positive peace, I feel it in my entire being. But nothing is descending from above — and I have no anxiety about it. I know it will surely come and I can wait indefinitely for it. The fact that I have left everything of my active life and that I am feeling peace and joy in the act of waiting for something unknown and uncertain —can this be ever possible due to a negative peace? 

Sri Aurobindo: From this it is clear that there is a seeking in your inner being. This is necessary for yoga. Do not be eager for things above. If you have this seeking and this peace, it will descend in its own time. 

Anilbaran: This waiting for something above — that which you call the Supermind — I have not the least idea of it. How to invoke a thing which is a mere zero to my mind? 

Sri Aurobindo: What is required is faith. Man has body, life and mind but that is not all that constitutes man. He has risen to the mind as a result of evolution. Now a higher consciousness will be evolved — this I call Supermind. It is the instrument of the Divine Consciousness, the Truth-Consciousness. There are three ways to call it down: to take a quiet resolution and wait, or to keep alive an aspiration, or to exert will-force. But there need not be no straining eagerness for it. In order to be a pure instrument of God one must attain to this Supermind. God does work through both pure and impure vessels but that does not mean that one should keep nature impure for ever. When the vessel will become pure the urge for action coming from within will be a flawless, definitive action. As long as that does not happen one has to minimize one’s activities. There should of course be left a field of work for the sake of experiment but at all times one must remember that there will always remain open a possibility of err. 

Anilbaran: What sort of work should one undertake? 

Sri Aurobindo: Whatever it may be — whatever is to one’s liking. You should exercise your intelligence and discretion in this matter but you must remember that it is only an experiment and that there are possibilities of committing many mistakes. Until you get a guidance from above you cannot be sure; but to get this guidance it requires time and sadhana. 

Anilbaran: It is this Supermind, I think, which will purify all layers of the being. 

                                                             * 

Sri Aurobindo: Do you know about the Chakras — the Tantric Chakras? 

Anilbaran: No. 

Sri Aurobindo: On the top of the head is a Chakra — Sahasradala or the thousand-petalled lotus. There is a Chakra in the middle of the forehead between the eyebrows and one in the heart-centre. The region between the navel and head constitutes the mental field. From navel downward extending till the terminus of the spinal chord, mūlādhāra, is the seat of the vital. At present concentrate on the mental field. The restlessness of the active mind is your chief obstacle now. After the mind becomes quiet you will have to deal with the vital plane. All these will come in course of time. How do you like Pondicherry? When are you going back? 

Anilbaran: I like it immensely. I get so much of peace and delight that I have no desire to leave this place and go back. It will be better if I could stay here. 

Sri Aurobindo: Well, you were saying that you would have to earn money for your family? 

Anilbaran: Let me see if I can do it from here only. I am no more that much worried about my family. The Divine will surely make some arrangements. I left my job during the non-cooperation movement in the same way. 

Sri Aurobindo: Stay here and see for some time and then if you should stay here permanently we shall have to rent a room for you. 

                                                              * 

 Sri Aurobindo: The Force which has to be called down from above must be pure and quiet because there are all kinds of forces — it will not do to call them all. And one must have sincerity. What do you want to do sadhana for? The aim should not be the satisfaction of egoism: “I want to be a great yogi; I shall have so much power and with that power I shall establish myself in the world.” All such thoughts must be thrown far away. One has to do sadhana for the total manifestation of the Divine in oneself. 

                                                              * 

Sri Aurobindo: There is a veil between the Supermind above and the lower Prakriti below — the veil of ingrained formations. This veil may completely withdraw or be partially withdrawn. Thus even if there is some little opening, with the contact of Light from above the lower nature will get slowly changed. 

     Even if the being is not entirely purified, varieties of inspirations and powers may come down from above but this may lead to serious errors. Inspirations from above mixing with the impurities from below get all muddled up and the sadhak takes this for an absolute command. Many a sadhak has thus fallen into danger. Therefore, one must particularly lay stress on the purification of the being. All desires and egoism will have to be banished from the being. 

                                                             * 

Sri Aurobindo: The feeling of power which you experience, — is there a sense of vastness in it? 

Anilbaran: Well, no. What sort of vastness do you mean? 

Sri Aurobindo: The all-embracing vast being which is there behind the play of the universe and with which you will have to identify yourself — for this is your true self. 

Anilbaran: Am I there one with all? 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. 

                                                            * 

3 June 1926 

Anilbaran: In the last few days I have observed that the difficulties of which I spoke to you earlier, e.g. the downward pull of the vital being — all these now I understand to be not much of a problem. If I keep them aside they remain aside. But the attacks of my dynamic mind trouble me a great deal. They do not leave me, however much I try. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, that may be so! This is a very strong element in your nature. You will have first to focus attention on this. What sorts of thoughts come to you? Plans of all kinds? 

Anilbaran: Yes. I shall have to do this or do that, etc. 

Sri Aurobindo: From where do these thoughts come? Do they rise from inside or do they come from outside? 

Anilbaran: That I cannot discern. How can I differentiate? 

Sri Aurobindo: By observation. You do not now have this habit. Watch closely and see from where they come. Do not allow things to intrude from outside. 

Anilbaran: I can’t keep them away, however much I try. They simply overpower me. 

Sri Aurobindo: Persevere. Watch them — as soon as they come, throw them away. If inspite of everything they do not go away, let them have their play and you only watch them. Realize the separation, — the Purusha is quite separate from these workings. Your nature is very active, that is why you have to face so much of difficulty. 

Anilbaran: Yes, right from my childhood I have such an active nature. 

Sri Aurobindo: That is very good, but you will have to purify it. Now concentrate on this part of the being. 

Anilbaran: Yes, I shall do so. 

     At home my relatives are a great deal worried. They are afraid that I may not return. My son is threatening to start a hunger-strike. He is clamouring that his father should be brought back. 

Sri Aurobindo: (With a smile) Yes, such things do happen. 

[After the interview mentioned above the following two notes written together are entered in Anilbaran’s diary.] 

6 June 1926: A Note 

After having come to Pondicherry everything appeared fine as if it was a land of peace. The thought of having to leave this place soon used to pain me. My mind had prepared itself for a long time for coming to Pondicherry and this feeling of peace in the mind was the result of finding the desired object. But for some time now I get a feeling of suffocation and somehow I feel that to run away from here will be a blessing. The pull of the lower nature is showing itself powerfully. All kinds of ingenious suggestions to escape from here are rising in the mind: can’t the sadhana be done at home amidst my relatives? or else can’t another place be found for doing the same all by oneself? The idea that I shall have to stay here for good to do sadhana does not appear happy to me. 

                                                             * 

There has been a slight change of mood since yesterday after the evening meditation. Now this is the firm resolution of the inner being that it will definitely rise above the lower nature and it is ready to stake everything for this. And for this, whatever command I receive from above I shall follow. If I fail to understand the command from above I shall proceed according to the instructions of Sri Aurobindo — it will all depend upon him. 

23 June 1926: A Note 

The above-mentioned phase of restlessness in the mind seems to have disappeared. I am beginning to feel sufficiently the atmosphere of sadhana here in Pondicherry. The other pulls are growing feeble. But still, I am not getting any clear hint from above about the place which I should choose as the seat of my sadhana. At the same time there is no call from inside to go away from Pondicherry. 

                                                             * 

10 June 1926 

Anilbaran: The habit of my dynamic mind to go on spinning plans is still continuing — but now it is only around choosing a place for sadhana and the problem of earning money. 

Sri Aurobindo: Has the pull towards other types of activities decreased? 

Anilbaran: Yes. Thoughts about other works no more disturb me. I remain preoccupied with sadhana. But which place shall I choose for sadhana and from where shall I get the money for my expenses — these thoughts worry me a lot. 

Sri Aurobindo: So your main problem now is money. Yes, such is the way here. Everybody has to struggle for money. It does not come to this block* either. 

Anilbaran: But money is not my only problem; to select a place for sadhana is one more problem. 

Sri Aurobindo: Don’t you receive any guidance from above regarding this? 

Anilbaran: Of course the suggestions come, but I can’t discern which one of these comes from above. 

Sri Aurobindo: The expression “from above” is for us only a way of speaking. Many receive from above the command for action — we call it intuition. 

Anilbaran: I do get a hint of such commands. 

Sri Aurobindo: Mere hints won’t do — a clear command is needed. The person who had just now an interview with me is a chief of Gujarat — a minor chief. He is engaged in some sort of sadhana, but not in ours. He does meditation and has got an opening. He receives guidance for action from above, but cannot discern from where it comes. Nevertheless he receives it. Now, there was a man who dug a well but failed to get any water. This chief pointed out a place and said to him, “Dig here, and you are sure to get water.” Sands and rocks began to appear as he dug but he was asked to continue and ultimately water was truly found. Then the chief asked the man, “What do you want to cultivate after having dug the well here?” “Cotton”, said the farmer. “Sow the seeds on new moon day”, he told the farmer. Now, nobody sows the seeds on the last day of the dark fortnight. But the farmer did as he was asked and as a result he reaped that year a harvest better than anyone else. 

Having thus received a command and abandoning all hankering after fruits, one should do the work as an instrument. This is one way of doing work. But this is not the way of our yoga. We want to acquire the very power from which such commands come and organize it and not merely be the instruments, but instead, to cooperate with the power whose instruments we are. For this yoga it is necessary to abandon every kind of work. It will not do to work for philanthropic purposes. Some work has to be retained but only as a field of experiment. Under this condition we cannot be engaged in philanthropy. 

Anilbaran:  I do not want to be engaged in philanthropy. I want to be engaged in this very yoga. 

Sri Aurobindo: If people pull you for work will you be able to resist? 

Anilbaran: Yes, I think I will be able to. Now it is necessary to select a place for my sadhana. I felt a lot of disturbance at home in my sadhana. There are two reasons for this: first, I took up the work of village organization on my shoulder. Secondly, I tried to cure my wife of her mental illness through affectionate behaviour, but I couldn’t do any good to her, rather I harmed myself. Now I shall get rid of both these obstacles. Of course, I never involved myself in family life, otherwise I could not have ventured to work for the country. I was getting suggestions right from inside the jail for doing sadhana by remaining with the family but in a detached condition. If I do sadhana there then there won’t be so much of financial strain. 

Sri Aurobindo: No financial strain? 

Anilbaran: No, I shall be there much more favourably placed. 

Sri Aurobindo: Wait for some time more and see if you get a happy solution. 

Anilbaran: All right! Now there is one more problem — the meeting of the Council for the amendment of B.T. Act. If it is passed it will lead to much disturbance. 

Sri Aurobindo: What is the situation regarding this? Will the Nationalists join hands with the Swarajists? 

Anilbaran: There is no certainty about this as yet. 

Sri Aurobindo: What sort of politics you people do? Such is the way of all parliaments: one can sense even beforehand the trend of voting, in which direction it will turn. Will there be a majority on the side of the government? 

Anilbaran: When Das was there one could have a definite idea about these things. Now the party remains disorganized and none is sure of his own intention. But if this bill is passed it will crush the middle class. 

Sri Aurobindo: So much the better for it! Given the present miserable condition, if it breaks down, perhaps it may be a blessing. It is no use asking me about it, for I have a very different opinion regarding this. 

Anilbaran: Now the question is, whether I should attend this meeting or not. The voters want that I should go and oppose it. They have nominated me and it is my duty to attend the meeting. 

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, yes, again it comes to that idea of duty. This is only a sentiment. 

Anilbaran: Yes, indeed! And I should have submitted my resignation. But I thought it was just a meeting and I did not want to create a row by submitting my resignation — hence this problem. 

Sri Aurobindo: You could attend if you were there. But now that you are here, can you discontinue this and go? 

Anilbaran: No, that can’t be. 

Sri Aurobindo: When is the meeting? 

Anilbaran: On the 6th July. If I should go there I must start on the 1st July from here. 

Sri Aurobindo: 1st July? 

Anilbaran: Yes. 

Sri Aurobindo: Well, I will see to it. 

 (N.B. I have come to Pondicherry, and that I should stay here for some time and return only after having a definite hold on sadhana, this is what seems to be the wish of Sri Aurobindo.) 

                                                             * 

25 June 1926 (Morning) 

Anilbaran: Distractions and doubts, when they are exposed to higher forces, get automatically solved. But I am unable to stop my mental activity; it continues even during the meditation. But then many ideas become clear. 

Sri Aurobindo: That’s good! You have an opening there. But things which become clear, are they practical or intellectual matters? 

Anilbaran: They are of both types. They are intellectual: for instance, when I was writing an article expounding the relation between the Sankhya and the Gita, many points became clear during my meditation. They are practical: such as, when this morning it became clear to me that the way our national leaders are now acting is leading them to their own degeneration and also impeding our nation’s progress. 

Sri Aurobindo: Why this degeneration? 

Anilbaran: Degeneration, because they fail to contact the higher forces and, in consequence, they are possessed by all sorts of lower forces. 

Sri Aurobindo: Can everybody contact the higher forces? No, not indeed; but they submit themselves to a discipline and this brings them success. Those in our country who enter into the field of work, value their own intelligence and egoism so highly that they fail to work together in harmony. They get entangled in all sorts of personal conflicts and bickerings. It is, of course, not true that countries like England are free from such failings. But they possess a strength which helps them to control such lower movements. Turkey, Japan do great work because they can keep under control their little personal selfishness, egoism, jealousy, etc. when they get down to work. To make a revolution is not in the grain of our people’s nature. They have no discipline. They cannot control their egoism and other failings, they cannot maintain secrecy. They seek only to create some sensation and in the process bring about their own ruin. As a result of this lack of discipline they hasten their own degeneration and spoil the work as well. Your assessment in this regard is correct: such an activity does bring about degeneration. And then? 

Anilbaran: Since I could not control these mental activities I mentioned earlier, I had thought of stopping entirely all studies and writings. For a few days I did not do any writing or reading work and spent the whole day quietly doing nothing. But that did not seem to help much. 

Sri Aurobindo: How can it help? In the early stages some work is necessary. An active mind needs an outlet. If it stops by itself from within, well and good; otherwise one should not try to stop this by force. You have an inclination for clarity. All kinds of indications will come from above and whatever you do must be referred to the Above. It will not do to depend on the mind alone. When initiative, guidance etc. will come down from above, then the thing begins; the next step will be to change the Adhara. Thus to act under the guidance coming from above, this is one side of the sadhana, the dynamic side. The other one is the discrimination between the Purusha and the Prakriti. The Purusha will calmly observe, give sanction, choose, but will realise that all this does not belong to him — all these are outside him. This is the static side of the sadhana. These two aspects constitute the basis of Yoga. 

Anilbaran: I perceive that the dynamic side of sadhana has begun in me. 

Sri Aurobindo: That is natural, because you are dynamic by nature. It is for this reason that I hesitated to draw you to this path. The Karmayoga of the Gita would have suited you better. That is your svadharma [The true law of one’s own being and action]. You have however within you an inclination towards completeness. 

Anilbaran: Yes, I can feel it. 

                                                             * 

Sri Aurobindo: You have a strong active nature. And this in you is a point of strength. If you can mould it rightly this will become a very great strength. On the other hand, this too is your weak point — a hindrance in sadhana. While doing work if the mind continues to be active let it be so, but there must be at the same time a capacity for silence. While doing sadhana you must quieten your mind and keep awake the Purusha consciousness behind all your activities. 

Anilbaran: How can one acquire this silent Purusha consciousness? 

Sri Aurobindo: That is what constitutes sadhana. There are many who experience this inner silence when they stand before nature. Does this ever happen to you? 

Anilbaran: No. 

Sri Aurobindo: How do you feel then? 

Anilbaran: It all the more increases my mental activity. 

                                                             * 

Anilbaran: But one thing I have gained: I can fairly watch what goes on within me. 

Sri Aurobindo: With which part do you watch? Surely with the mind? That won’t do. It is the silent Purusha within who must watch all. 

Anilbaran: The activity of the mind is getting reduced. And I can see well that I am gradually making some progress. But here we have an isolated atmosphere. But once I go outside this atmosphere, everything will get muddled, I fear. 

Sri Aurobindo: That is very true. One must have first of all a solid foundation. 

                                                             * 

Sri Aurobindo: The intuitions and impressions that you receive in you, do they come from inside or outside? 

Anilbaran: I feel that they come from above. 

Sri Aurobindo: The experience of the Purusha which you get, do you feel it inside you or above you? It enters you from above? 

Anilbaran: I feel it inside me. 

Sri Aurobindo: Good. Make the dwelling clean for it. 

                                                             * 

28 June 1926 Monday (Morning) 

Anilbaran: I can feel the silence in mountainous scenes, but I can’t feel the same in the restlessness of the sea. 

Sri Aurobindo: In the middle of an ocean on board a ship, one can get a sense of vastness.